From gduval at ulteo.com Tue Jun 3 11:38:26 2008 From: gduval at ulteo.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ga=EBl_Duval?=) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 11:38:26 +0200 Subject: [Devel] Ulteo Application System future architecture Message-ID: <48451112.4090404@ulteo.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi, at the moment, Ulteo is built from different read-only layers (mounted from squashfs files) that each provide a part of the system, and from a read-write layer where data can be written. All the layers are unioned to form a full filesystem system. For instance we have: - - kernel layer - - KDE layer - - basic applications layer - - desktop applications layer - - games layer - - language layers (one layer for each language) All layers are mounted from squashfs files that are in /boot/yuch/ The benefit of this architecture is double: 1- layers can easily be updated/synced from server images with an incremental syncing algorithm (we use zsync), bit per bit 2- the system doesn't take much space since layers are read from compressed files The main drawback of this architecture is that if you still want to use apt-get install/dpkg -i, this will lead to some issues when the underlying system gets upgraded (layer upgrade) because installed .deb files won't get upgraded at the same time, and will override newer versions (the rw layer has precedence on ro layers). In the end, dependencies get broken and the system can become unstable. For that reason, we have disabled apt-get in Ulteo for now. But we know that experimented users want to install/remove some packages themselves on the system. Maybe they don't even want to get automatic layer upgrades. So at this step of development, there are several options: option 1- find a way to have the layer system and apt-get cohabit smoothly. We can use some techniques to improve the cohabitation, but at the moment, we don't think that we can expect a "miracle" soon. One possibility is to use "klik" to get newer software installed in $HOME directory without modifying the root base system. option 2- release two flavours of Ulteo: * an "automatic" version of Ulteo for "dumb" users (ie: mum and dad) where you cannot even use apt-get * a "geek" version where layers don't get updated automatically, and where users can freely use apt-get install/remove etc. and do what they want (with or without a regular filesystem) option 3- find another ideas... Ideas, suggestions are welcome! You can discuss this topic on this mailing list of online at: http://www.ulteo.com/main/forums/viewtopic.php?p=7684#7684 Ga?l. - -- < Founder Ulteo - http://www.ulteo.com > < Founder Mandrake Linux - (Now "Mandriva") > < Blog: http://www.indidea.org/gael/blog/ > < Sign and encrypt emails with GPG! My key id: 0x8B0301E2 > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iQIVAwUBSEUREW0qgSuLAwHiAQJoDw/+P/MEUIvR4/ZyOQLCtisdmZK078rspyMH pszPppeLxNruGwFFIdJOH3/ixHCe2Vc1Zl1GVJsRs23h6SoCY9Y04mMb+6QcOemn LNCVmexT05FaSNI8F0LPCUPbpy6FWdgHs/gFFNr4BxNGGXazkQLK1vPz/s8oqigX +VlyL66vurXsCMGJ3WTkVorDHyBfVShhHFJRwY9urSphV8NSTEaM3Ln9oxpOFnf4 cLx6SmGUKnoObxpBlfEjnyqzQLF4Hh/Ou3P4aaIxxbQUnoyA3BGs1PYBs94vOhKL Zg5acxEHGoKezOBJIZ24C5X2HKLjPZSY+T8F5uDgDW/e89cR5DHxjpv7txO6Lk5a xaLbgODFuEAOQNOo5RBACGn1zim8GeVio+zgcLYGZdb/RgHp7cpsM3GoJbMh0Jer AWSzYl7QpoJLrsda6dJqeYc1TBGPuyOlhSZuqVNDl0rtUfkio7uyFmTeFwNFZ72K v0WcPY3NSI0kiKWC2oWnus3uS0xqeUrazdwIjohczou3HEtdMCrYEXI0jDi7/Wwj 2CB0CrdH8iGGg3LME6aiQhok2pHSmNZNOiNEYqDJ+rbDB0Z3GcOzpyws0nndp/oT lNT+XzzFq/dXJJE3d1v7Zc6Dam3gKUOXsHbhLMcXBGtOEZD657FeMjJq1JV7KSTH Hb48X8IU/LY= =Fv12 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From tat07x202 at sneakemail.com Tue Jun 3 15:19:29 2008 From: tat07x202 at sneakemail.com (Ottavio Caruso) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 14:19:29 +0100 Subject: [Devel] Devel Digest, Vol 18, Issue 1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > From: Ga?l Duval > Subject: [Devel] Ulteo Application System future architecture > To: Developers discussion list > Message-ID: <48451112.4090404 at ulteo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > > Hi, > > at the moment, Ulteo is built from different read-only layers (mounted > from squashfs files) that each provide a part of the system, and from a > read-write layer where data can be written. > ... > option 3- find another ideas... Can we just use the Slax modules approach? That would appeal to both so-called geeks and dumbs. Obviously in that case the user should be given temporary root access or some other solution that overrides the everything-as-root Slax approach. And a question: is Ulteo permanently going to be Debian/Ubuntu based? Can we borrow something from Slackware or M****ake? -- Ottavio Caruso http://www.pledgebank.com/boycottvista From gduval at ulteo.com Wed Jun 4 09:30:24 2008 From: gduval at ulteo.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ga=EBl_Duval?=) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 09:30:24 +0200 Subject: [Devel] Devel Digest, Vol 18, Issue 1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48464490.5090903@ulteo.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi, Ottavio Caruso wrote: >> option 3- find another ideas... > > Can we just use the Slax modules approach? That would appeal to both > so-called geeks and dumbs. Obviously in that case the user should be > given temporary root access or some other solution that overrides the > everything-as-root Slax approach. Yes we have considered this module approach, in some way it's close to Ulteo concept. > And a question: is Ulteo permanently going to be Debian/Ubuntu based? Not necesseraly, and we do not base everything on Debian/Ubuntu, mostly software packages and the installer (which is modified). > Can we borrow something from Slackware or M****ake? If this is open-source, it's possible, of course. But all of them ditribute the same software applications :) Regards Ga?l - -- < Founder Ulteo - http://www.ulteo.com > < Founder Mandrake Linux - (Now "Mandriva") > < Blog: http://www.indidea.org/gael/blog/ > < Sign and encrypt emails with GPG! My key id: 0x8B0301E2 > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iQIVAwUBSEZEj20qgSuLAwHiAQI8wQ/+NQul5nAVODFECL/50WicCESvhgEu9BwR 6eja3vt0MGTIXAEx8z3SKywWBDAx3JpFu81xxq8KYVv+oGJdJ11eN8wLlM6fJaDs Ny82xl0vs7egkPopUdLCNvMWzwPs/FqvYuFmu5X1qKjoJeBRZ+hZBVAGr/Gtwvyp Y6V9OzmU4tdEb2dHLZdWVMqbZVKV21aleGemSF9QvgPuei9mzrB2AourNve+0Z2B IKCwFc1cPBLrMbgZVaggdJI5LwxJXQVLYzRYxN0NpTv2BQMYJOzGJHsq29gwfJHk XOQP9y52HaTewCOyIk68dGUf9rhsTpJ+tAnsOh8ZU/C0M8AJIk8Jz/cYz/43mUG1 P5+TklYa+i0eZbHYkODh5QkwibRc4IbHbNdcP3n5eSvOHpdXN+XVS192a1lMdZHC LL1QbZ3bRJeTXz2PZgfyELBrtl3DDI1binSIflpP1rXhzwJTycaARhfFgexNT6qC VF4HzIzHNlv4MoYpumomr6noj1hHpQQwgHNqmONTPvOQGTT2KKuPbh0mWS6gMDnV w5te7n3m8GcQA3PLDD71H5Cs7l0nw5mceeZZ/brSJv4N1VBpeuFj15OE7kIRTAoz b4nB2tBB8q1ee+JJjlYvJ/v3GdjUmzzgNrRThVX7P/1gnhjV9fWqnA/c0oCsUog9 HmBOeeuynpI= =wFXR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From dfavara at ulteo.com Wed Jun 4 09:41:14 2008 From: dfavara at ulteo.com (Daniele Favara) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 09:41:14 +0200 Subject: [Devel] Ulteo Application System future architecture In-Reply-To: <48464490.5090903@ulteo.com> References: <48464490.5090903@ulteo.com> Message-ID: Il giorno 04/giu/08, alle ore 09:30, Ga?l Duval ha scritto: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Hi, > > Ottavio Caruso wrote: >>> option 3- find another ideas... >> >> Can we just use the Slax modules approach? That would appeal to both >> so-called geeks and dumbs. Obviously in that case the user should be >> given temporary root access or some other solution that overrides the >> everything-as-root Slax approach. > > Yes we have considered this module approach, in some way it's close to > Ulteo concept. It should be really easy to create an ulteo module from within ulteo, If you're interested on it i can write a step by step tutorial. A quick question ... Are slax modules standalone or they have dependencies ? > >> And a question: is Ulteo permanently going to be Debian/Ubuntu based? > > Not necesseraly, and we do not base everything on Debian/Ubuntu, > mostly > software packages and the installer (which is modified). > >> Can we borrow something from Slackware or M****ake? > > If this is open-source, it's possible, of course. But all of them > ditribute the same software applications :) what's that something ? :) > > Regards > > Ga?l > > - -- > < Founder Ulteo - http://www.ulteo.com > > < Founder Mandrake Linux - (Now "Mandriva") > > < Blog: http://www.indidea.org/gael/blog/ > > < Sign and encrypt emails with GPG! My key id: 0x8B0301E2 > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org > > iQIVAwUBSEZEj20qgSuLAwHiAQI8wQ/+NQul5nAVODFECL/50WicCESvhgEu9BwR > 6eja3vt0MGTIXAEx8z3SKywWBDAx3JpFu81xxq8KYVv+oGJdJ11eN8wLlM6fJaDs > Ny82xl0vs7egkPopUdLCNvMWzwPs/FqvYuFmu5X1qKjoJeBRZ+hZBVAGr/Gtwvyp > Y6V9OzmU4tdEb2dHLZdWVMqbZVKV21aleGemSF9QvgPuei9mzrB2AourNve+0Z2B > IKCwFc1cPBLrMbgZVaggdJI5LwxJXQVLYzRYxN0NpTv2BQMYJOzGJHsq29gwfJHk > XOQP9y52HaTewCOyIk68dGUf9rhsTpJ+tAnsOh8ZU/C0M8AJIk8Jz/cYz/43mUG1 > P5+TklYa+i0eZbHYkODh5QkwibRc4IbHbNdcP3n5eSvOHpdXN+XVS192a1lMdZHC > LL1QbZ3bRJeTXz2PZgfyELBrtl3DDI1binSIflpP1rXhzwJTycaARhfFgexNT6qC > VF4HzIzHNlv4MoYpumomr6noj1hHpQQwgHNqmONTPvOQGTT2KKuPbh0mWS6gMDnV > w5te7n3m8GcQA3PLDD71H5Cs7l0nw5mceeZZ/brSJv4N1VBpeuFj15OE7kIRTAoz > b4nB2tBB8q1ee+JJjlYvJ/v3GdjUmzzgNrRThVX7P/1gnhjV9fWqnA/c0oCsUog9 > HmBOeeuynpI= > =wFXR > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > _______________________________________________ > Devel mailing list > Devel at mailman.ulteo.com > http://mailman.ulteo.com/cgi-bin/listinfo/devel > Daniele Favara (ulteo core developer) Via Bertelli n. 29/5 GAVI-AL 15066 ITALY -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: PGP.sig Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 186 bytes Desc: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Questa_=E8_un_messaggio_firmato_elettronicamente?= Url : http://mailman.ulteo.com/pipermail/devel/attachments/20080604/59a1df9b/attachment.pgp From hawake at gmail.com Wed Jun 4 15:47:28 2008 From: hawake at gmail.com (giuseppe gran) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 15:47:28 +0200 Subject: [Devel] Ulteo Application System future architecture In-Reply-To: References: <48464490.5090903@ulteo.com> Message-ID: 2008/6/4 Daniele Favara : > A quick question ... Are slax modules standalone or they have dependencies ? I think not. In fact if you watch in the Modules download page, of Slax's home site, every module has its dependecies, watch this for example: http://www.slax.org/modules.php?action=detail&id=245 it specify that the Slax system where the Application Module will be installed must has "Slax core 6.0.7". Bye hawake -- http://www.javalightserver.org Linux user number 433087 Linux registered machine number 351448 http://counter.li.org/ From tat07x202 at sneakemail.com Wed Jun 4 16:21:44 2008 From: tat07x202 at sneakemail.com (Ottavio Caruso) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 15:21:44 +0100 Subject: [Devel] Ulteo Application System future architecture Message-ID: <27802-52458@sneakemail.com> > From: Daniele Favara > Subject: Re: [Devel] Ulteo Application System future architecture > It should be really easy to create an ulteo module from within ulteo, > > If you're interested on it i can write a step by step tutorial. > > A quick question ... Are slax modules standalone or they have > dependencies ? Disclaimer: I am not necessarily a Slax fan, but I have toyed with it. Slax modules are supposed to be standalone, although I don't think this is 100% possible. Because they are built from Slackware packages, they are supposed to be universally installable. I have read they work with Puppy and DSL, the latter being not Slackware based. In theory one should be able to make a Slax module and that should run on everything everywhere. I say in theory, I haven't tried bulding one myself but the ones that come with Slax work fine... on Slax. The idea is very captivating, I stopped going the Slax route when the developer removed most of the documentation from the website. > >> Can we borrow something from Slackware or M****ake? > > > > If this is open-source, it's possible, of course. But all of them > > ditribute the same software applications :) > > what's that something ? :) A certain disdain (or lack of enthusiasm) for automated package management. -- Ottavio Caruso http://www.pledgebank.com/boycottvista From gduval at ulteo.com Mon Jun 9 16:19:46 2008 From: gduval at ulteo.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ga=EBl_Duval?=) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2008 16:19:46 +0200 Subject: [Devel] [ANNOUNCE] Ulteo Virtual Desktop Beta2 has been released Message-ID: <484D3C02.1060709@ulteo.com> Hi, just a quick message to inform you that we have published an upgraded version of the Virtual Desktop (this is Ulteo that runs on Windows for those who are late in the news). Most bugfixes and improvements have been done on community request. You can download either a patch if you want to switch from Beta1 to Beta2 (in this case, you have to use "Edge mode" for full upgrade), or download the full VD Beta2, and reinstall the full system. All details are available at: http://www.ulteo.com/home/en/news/2008/06/09 Download at: http://www.ulteo.com/home/download#VD Ga?l. -- < Founder Ulteo - http://www.ulteo.com > < Founder Mandrake Linux - (Now "Mandriva") > < Blog: http://www.indidea.org/gael/blog/ > < Sign and encrypt emails with GPG! My key id: 0x8B0301E2 > From to.tonton at gmail.com Tue Jun 17 20:47:02 2008 From: to.tonton at gmail.com (Tonton) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 20:47:02 +0200 Subject: [Devel] Ulteo Application System future architecture In-Reply-To: <48451112.4090404@ulteo.com> References: <48451112.4090404@ulteo.com> Message-ID: <41649c240806171147u3a316513x780349bb6260189f@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 11:38 AM, Ga?l Duval wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Hi, > > at the moment, Ulteo is built from different read-only layers (mounted > from squashfs files) that each provide a part of the system, and from a > read-write layer where data can be written. > > All the layers are unioned to form a full filesystem system. > > For instance we have: > - - kernel layer > - - KDE layer > - - basic applications layer > - - desktop applications layer > - - games layer > - - language layers (one layer for each language) > > All layers are mounted from squashfs files that are in /boot/yuch/ > > The benefit of this architecture is double: > 1- layers can easily be updated/synced from server images with an > incremental syncing algorithm (we use zsync), bit per bit > 2- the system doesn't take much space since layers are read from > compressed files > > The main drawback of this architecture is that if you still want to use > apt-get install/dpkg -i, this will lead to some issues when the > underlying system gets upgraded (layer upgrade) because installed .deb > files won't get upgraded at the same time, and will override newer > versions (the rw layer has precedence on ro layers). In the end, > dependencies get broken and the system can become unstable. For that > reason, we have disabled apt-get in Ulteo for now. > > But we know that experimented users want to install/remove some packages > themselves on the system. Maybe they don't even want to get automatic > layer upgrades. > > So at this step of development, there are several options: > > option 1- find a way to have the layer system and apt-get cohabit > smoothly. We can use some techniques to improve the cohabitation, but at > the moment, we don't think that we can expect a "miracle" soon. One > possibility is to use "klik" to get newer software installed in $HOME > directory without modifying the root base system. > > option 2- release two flavours of Ulteo: > * an "automatic" version of Ulteo for "dumb" users (ie: mum and > dad) where you cannot even use apt-get > * a "geek" version where layers don't get updated automatically, > and where users can freely use apt-get install/remove etc. and do what > they want (with or without a regular filesystem) > > option 3- find another ideas... > > Ideas, suggestions are welcome! > > hi it is not possible to activate RW to layers before use apt/dpkg ? geeks process to have right to use apt on "dumb" version so only one version and special file access, tempory mount for the update/install TIME maybe need to stop services or made that at boot tonton -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ulteo.com/pipermail/devel/attachments/20080617/a2afed36/attachment.htm